tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9189981194016418049.post6934080643833391440..comments2024-03-08T16:52:11.999-06:00Comments on APOLOGIA: Abortion in the newsHendrik van der Breggenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04149481975577863835noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9189981194016418049.post-39178941238816279162012-10-07T18:00:01.719-05:002012-10-07T18:00:01.719-05:00Significantly, the voices of those who have been c...Significantly, the voices of those who have been conceived via rape should be heard too. See the 11 minute video <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dal0opeSnQ" rel="nofollow">Conceived in Rape</a>.Hendrik van der Breggenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04149481975577863835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9189981194016418049.post-10141430124346767622012-10-07T17:56:30.540-05:002012-10-07T17:56:30.540-05:00Significantly, the voices of those who have been c...Significantly, the voices of those who have been conceived via rape should be heard too. See the 11 minute video <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dal0opeSnQ" rel="nofollow">Conceived in Rape</a>.Hendrik van der Breggenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04149481975577863835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9189981194016418049.post-19625280031638858062011-11-01T16:25:24.452-05:002011-11-01T16:25:24.452-05:00Hello again Kane,
It looks like we're going t...Hello again Kane,<br /><br />It looks like we're going to argue a bit here. I'm happy with doing so, as long as we do it well (i.e., as long as we reason carefully plus show respect to those with whom we disagree).<br /><br />You asked, "what does what you choose to do with your life have anything to do with me?" Well, I suppose that if I'm your friend and I'm doing something clearly evil, you might be willing to tell me that I'm doing something evil. I like to think that I'm your friend. So, because you told me that you're never against pro-choice and never against pro-life, I decided that, as your friend, I should point out to you that your position has some weird/immoral consequences, such as having nothing to say about me choosing to have a slave (pro-choice) as long as I don't kill the slave (pro-life). (I was thinking of the Austrian man Josef Fritzl who chose to lock up his daughter in his basement for 20-plus years and chose to rape her often, fathering several children, whom Fritzl also chose to keep locked up.)<br /><br />About Marc Lepine's murders, you wrote, "clearly your stance against it really can't do anything to prevent it." I disagree. My stance against the murder of women translates into all sorts of efforts to prevent such occurrences: I teach ethics courses and in these courses I teach that all people are made in God's image and thus are moral equals and so shouldn't be murdered; I have taught this ethical position to my sons; I try to be an example to other men in showing respect to women; I support my local politicians in promoting fairness to all in legislation; I write a column in which I criticize ethical theories such as moral subjectivsm, which would put a stamp of approval on the murder of women by the likes of Marc Lepine, Ted Bundy, etc. To be sure, I can't <i>directly</i> prevent the behaviours of the likes of Lepine and Bundy and company, but I can work against such behaviour <i>indirectly</i>, by promoting a moral milieu that respects all people.<br /><br />Ditto for abortion. In fact (and I don't mean to toot my own horn here), I wrote a book on the abortion issue and all the income from the book went to help women who were facing crisis pregnancy. Plus I sent a copy of the book to each Member of Parliament. Plus I continue to write columns on the issue. Plus I discuss the abortion issue in my ethics courses. Etc.<br /><br />Regarding your claim that "people can reject your choice to legislate against them and do what they're going to do, anyway," my reply is: Of course they can. But I would quickly add that just because some people are going to, say, murder others regardless of whether there's a law against murder, it doesn't follow that it's a good idea not to have a law against murder.<br /><br />Kane, I hope that my comments are helpful.<br /><br />Best regards,<br />Hendrik<br /><br />P.S. My seven columns on ethical theory can be found <a href="http://apologiabyhendrikvanderbreggen.blogspot.com/search/label/Ethics" rel="nofollow">here</a>. My column on subjectivist ethics is <a href="http://apologiabyhendrikvanderbreggen.blogspot.com/search/label/Subjectivism" rel="nofollow">here</a>.Hendrik van der Breggenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04149481975577863835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9189981194016418049.post-33961185348396268552011-10-31T17:38:46.796-05:002011-10-31T17:38:46.796-05:00Hendrik--
You responded to me with, "So you&...Hendrik--<br /><br />You responded to me with, <b>"So you're okay with me choosing to have a slave or two, as long as I don't kill them?"</b><br /><br />Rather than simply say 'yes' or 'no,' I'd like to ask you a practical question: what does what you choose to do with your life have anything to do with me?<br /><br />In your example of Marc Lepine, you noted that, <b>"I can maintain my (and others') inherent status as a freely choosing creature yet be against, say, Marc Lepine's free choice to shoot women at the Ecole Polytechnique massacre. This makes sense -- good sense."</b><br /><br />Absolutely you can be against that. But clearly your stance against it really can't do anything to prevent it. The same holds true with abortion: you can be against it, but your personal stance doesn't automatically translate into your somewhat emotionally loaded question, <b>"shouldn't it be incumbent on us morally to 'remove the choice' to destroy them?"</b><br /><br />Because of course the answer to that is double-sided: yes you can assume it incumbent on you remove people's choice through various legislations. But on the other side of this, yes, people can reject your choice to legislate against them and do what they're going to do, anyway.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17771674447306246398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9189981194016418049.post-73081477175665020172011-10-30T19:03:45.268-05:002011-10-30T19:03:45.268-05:00Kane, you wrote: "I'm never against pro-c...Kane, you wrote: "I'm never against pro-choice. I'm also not against pro-life."<br /><br />So you're okay with me choosing to have a slave or two, as long as I don't kill them? I doubt that you would say yes. (And I'm glad that you wouldn't say yes.)<br /><br />Kane, you wrote: "[I]t doesn't make sense to be against another's free choice unless you're willing to set aside your own inherent status as a freely choosing creature."<br /><br />This is false, surely. I can maintain my (and others') inherent status as a freely choosing creature yet be against, say, Marc Lepine's free choice to shoot women at the Ecole Polytechnique massacre. This makes sense -- good sense.<br /> <br />Kane, I'm glad that you choose to be "non-supportive" of abortion. But if unborn children are actual human beings as, say, Lepine's victims are human beings (albeit the former are at an earlier developmental stage than the latter), and if human beings have equal inherent moral worth, shouldn't it be incumbent on us morally to "remove the choice" to destroy them?Hendrik van der Breggenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04149481975577863835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9189981194016418049.post-40094551571035920062011-10-30T17:31:58.583-05:002011-10-30T17:31:58.583-05:00Hmm... I'm never against pro-choice. I'm ...Hmm... I'm never against pro-choice. I'm also not against pro-life. I just don't think that being 'against' anything in this regard solves much. Combat -- whether verbal or physical -- really doesn't make much sense when the reality being fought against is destruction. Why add combative intentions to an already destructive act?<br /><br />But besides that, it doesn't make sense to be against another's free choice unless you're willing to set aside your own inherent status as a freely choosing creature.<br /><br />So, ontologically, I cannot be 'against' pro-choice. But my own personal choice for my own life is non-supportive of abortion. But it's not for me to choose to remove choice from anyone else. I don't have to live with anyone else's conscience, so they are welcome to choose whatever they'd like. As long as their choices don't impinge on my life, I'm free to disengage from their perspectives or actions.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17771674447306246398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9189981194016418049.post-695498256821151512011-10-30T12:15:51.950-05:002011-10-30T12:15:51.950-05:00Thanks, Dan. It's good to hear from you. Bes...Thanks, Dan. It's good to hear from you. Best regards to you.Hendrik van der Breggenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04149481975577863835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9189981194016418049.post-16170715497246433802011-10-30T12:13:48.494-05:002011-10-30T12:13:48.494-05:00Kane, some clarification is in order. At conceptio...Kane, some clarification is in order. At conception there is a fusion of sperm and egg, and a new life form begins. The new life form is neither egg nor sperm; rather, it is something substantially different—i.e., a different substance/ a different living entity. Conception marks the physical-spatio-temporal genesis of a genetically distinct self-governing dynamic organism. In the case of human sperm and human egg, this organism marks the first stage of a new living human entity, a new living human individual—a new living human being. That's the sense in which life begins at conception.Hendrik van der Breggenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04149481975577863835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9189981194016418049.post-13632103289128468202011-10-30T12:00:58.522-05:002011-10-30T12:00:58.522-05:00Great post, the 'pro-choice' arguments are...Great post, the 'pro-choice' arguments are so weak its difficult to see how people can be persuaded of them. The link to the Pro-life advertisement is absoluteness classic, I'll be using that for another blog on abortion in the future.failedatheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16176322877697068624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9189981194016418049.post-70331756668082509362011-10-29T20:12:40.627-05:002011-10-29T20:12:40.627-05:00Hendrik--
I agree with the thrust of the bus-ads,...Hendrik--<br /><br />I agree with the thrust of the bus-ads, but I disagree that life begins at conception: the egg and the sperm are both alive when they combine to create a more complex life. There's never a point when organic matter that grows <i>isn't</i> alive. And if there is, we'll have to change our definition of death post-haste.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17771674447306246398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9189981194016418049.post-40640287994108825692011-10-27T21:06:36.934-05:002011-10-27T21:06:36.934-05:00Here is a pro-life advertisement with a style that...Here is a pro-life advertisement with a style that's becoming quite familiar (thanks in part to Richard Dawkins and friends): <a href="http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/pro-life-group-piggybacks-on-successful-atheist-bus-ad-campaign?utm_source=LifeSiteNews.com+Daily+Newsletter&utm_campaign=3538873e9a-LifeSiteNews_com_Canada_Headlines10_27_2011&utm_medium=email" rel="nofollow">LifeSiteNews</a>.Hendrik van der Breggenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04149481975577863835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9189981194016418049.post-89527493682909556162011-10-27T20:59:09.054-05:002011-10-27T20:59:09.054-05:00Thanks Kane -- it's good to hear from you. &q...Thanks Kane -- it's good to hear from you. "Umbrage." I like that word.Hendrik van der Breggenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04149481975577863835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9189981194016418049.post-66422787498750876032011-10-26T19:42:06.265-05:002011-10-26T19:42:06.265-05:00Hendrik--
An excellent post! Thank you for havin...Hendrik--<br /><br />An excellent post! Thank you for having the courage to place your neck on the line with this issue. As you know, many people would take umbrage with your position, so you have a lot of courage to speak it so publically.<br /><br />Cheers!<br />KaneAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17771674447306246398noreply@blogger.com